Julia Fordham Walks In Beauty
She's a master singer-songwriter who knows that music, and life, are meant to be intentionally explored.
Hello Julia, and welcome to the Womancake interview! How is your workday going?
I'm a British person living in LA. I live in Topanga Canyon in a tree house, but most of the traction that I still have is in the UK, so I have a lot of sleepless nights. I'm trying to launch a record at the moment, but I don't really worry about not getting sleep. I've been trying to get everything ready to launch, [and] because it's being run out of the UK, I look at my phone at night, I do all the things you're not allowed to do. I click on things and I text, I just kind of work through the night. But then I get up and I have a lovely cup of tea, and then before I start the other work of the day, I've already done the English thing.
Every day I walk for about an hour, [and] I've already been up to the labyrinth. I'm really quite disciplined. It's hard to explain, but I've just got this kind of very British suck-it-up factor, and I just suck it up. I make a list and I just sort of hunker down and follow it.
I admire that very much! You're a globally beloved singer-songwriter, you’ve produced multiple albums, and you’ve toured around the world. I know you’re preparing to release your brand-new record. Will you talk about the genesis of it, and about the process of making it?
I've always written in the same way, and it might sound a bit abstract, but it makes perfect sense to me. I never sit down and write, I always get songs as I'm doing other things. So when I go on my daily walk, one of the reasons I stick to it, I know a lot of people do the Julia Cameron [morning] pages, and I used to do that 100 years ago. But what I've realized is that I don't actually really need to do that. I just need to start walking. If I start walking by myself, songs will come to me.
So over the last, I would say, five years, all the songs that have come to me as I'm walking. I have really spent the last year focusing in on them. I wander around with my phone, and then on my walk I sing the song [into it]. I always do the melody, and the melody and the words come together for me. Then I pick up the guitar, put the chords and do the structure of it.
Over the last few years I've been collecting songs. I did do an album during COVID, which was all the songs that were already in my computer that many people had asked me to write for their film [soundtracks]. I'll often meet an independent film director, and they'll be like, “Hi, I'm your number one fan!” and [then] they're telling me the idea for the [soundtrack] song. I always get the idea for the song, and then I record it, and then the film doesn't get made, or it doesn't come out, especially during COVID. So I just released them all. That album was actually called, “Cutting Room Floor,” and [the title song] was a co-write with Simon Petty, who's our mutual friend Celia’s really talented boyfriend.
But subsequently, and during COVID, and especially afterwards, I had [another] collection of songs. I thought, These are really strong, and I need to record them. So for this record, in particular, I wanted to go back to a live sound, whereas everything I did on that “Cutting Room Floor” album was all kind of on computers, and working with an amazing musician who's programming the drums and doing the bass, and playing everything. For this record I wanted to go back to a very beautiful live sound with extraordinary musicians, and every song was recorded that way.
Six of the songs were recorded in the UK with a bunch of my original live band. I've always stayed in touch with those guys. A lot of them don't live in London now. After [working with] me, they all went on to play with people that I absolutely love. One is an extraordinary singer- songwriter called Joan Armatrading, and they currently work with another singer that I absolutely love, Deva Premal. They were also John Martin’s band, who I love as well.
So I thought it was kind of uncanny that those guys who were in my [old] band [went on to] play with three of my top-10 favorite artists. I [started] talking to them, and we had a little bit of a WhatsApp group, and I just thought, These are the guys. So I flew over to Spencer Cozens [who’s] got a studio in his house, and I booked an Airbnb around the corner so I could walk to the studio every day. I hired [the band] to concentrate on the songs and record them live. But to get to that point, I spent absolutely ages on what the tempo should be and what the key should be, because one of my blessings, but also my challenges, is that I can sing really high and really low. So every song I’ll probably try in four keys before I settle on the best one. I'll just listen over and over again to my own recording, so that by the time I get into the studio, I was ready to get it done.
But unfortunately, I was booked for 7 days with them, [and] on day 2 I got COVID. I had to sit in my tiny bed and breakfast room, just talking to them by FaceTime and singing the songs with a click [track] and sending them in, but it was very hard. Then I had to fly back to do the vocals. But I ended up with these tracks that I just absolutely love. If you have amazing musicians, they will bring their A-game to your stuff.
I also did another track with an amazing group of musicians here [in LA] in a similar way, just a day in the studio. They're basically all the guys who've either played with Jackson Browne or Marcus Mumford, or both. They're all incredible musicians, and I loved that day. And then I did a couple of things that are duets with other people, which is sort of like co-writing situations.
But I mean, sometimes I wonder, not like, Why am I still doing it? But why am I still doing an art form that isn't really necessary, or appreciated? Because people apparently don't have an attention span for albums anymore. They don't really want to listen to 10 songs. I do. I'm still old school, I will listen from start to finish to something. I’ll get in my car and go somewhere, and I'll listen for an hour, so I can hear the whole thing.
I know exactly what you mean! I feel that with records, more than any other art form, my hang-up is that once I start a record I have to finish listening to it, or it's a moral failure.
I have the exact same moral-failure syndrome, but I think that you and I are a dying breed. I think most people have crossed over. But there's that Buddhist expression, “You cannot cling to that which changes.” But I sort of like clinging a bit, because it really felt like [with] this particular group of songs, there was a sort of arc that kind of went all the way around into a circle.
That thing you're describing is an art, and there are so many musicians that never learned that art. But it's so valuable to know how to sculpt the listener’s journey through your record.
Thank you for knowing [that]. But I don't know, and I'm not saying this dramatically, if I [can] do this ever again. It's not really my personality type to be like, What's the point? I'm not like a glass half-full [person]. I'm always like, My glass is very abundant and overflowing. But I'm just not sure if it's worth what it takes, because now it sort of feels like, not a sacrifice, but I'm really feeling the pinch of the inordinate amount of focus and effort that is required in completing this arc that turns into a circle, that brings you full circle, [but] doesn't really have value anymore.
I have a question that comes to mind. It's quite clear that you are a master artist, perhaps more in command of your powers than you ever were. Pop music is a uniquely youth-dominated genre, and as women age society has a tendency to care less and less about what we're doing. My question is, do you think if we lived in a society where we took older women's skills, knowledge, experience and wisdom seriously, and we looked forward to the work that they do and the art they create as they age, do you think if we lived in that kind of society, it might reduce some of the burden, or however you experienced the challenges of it? Do you think that that would have any effect on the way you proceed?
I don't know that it's necessarily age-related. I think it's where the big beam of light lands at any given moment in time. Whereas there used to be the 15 minutes [of fame], I think it's now like 15 seconds, and that is more a reflection of our oversaturated access than it is a disrespect or disregard for women of a certain age. If Joni Mitchell is 70, 80 or 100, you are going to listen to what she does. We are going to actively pursue the artists that we like, which is the only way now, with this inordinate amount of information. Also the standard is so high, it's not like we're being saturated with dreadful mediocrity. I'm constantly astounded by the level of genius. Billie Eilish's new album, [is] absolutely fantastic from start to finish.
I have a 19 year old daughter, so I grew up listening to her bringing me [music], and I reflect on this a lot. She was always making mixtapes. She could remember any song on the radio, and she would always be like, in the carpool, playing music, and I remember I was like, “Who the hell is this? This is great!” [To the] point that you're making, I couldn't tell if these people were young or old, or where they were coming from. My kid introduced me to Phoebe Bridgers. I was like, “What is this song, ‘Funeral,’ go back play that again.” Now for me, I wouldn't have cared if Phoebe was like 800 years old, or 18 or 28 or whatever she is. I just identify that as a standout song and artist. So I don't know that it's about age anymore.
Fair enough, and I hope you’re right. Now I'm going to pivot us to Womancake’s quarterly theme, which is “Power Songs.” Will you share one of your favorites?
For me it was Joni Mitchell. With Joni I was like, Okay, well, this is genius. But there was also a different element, which I would say was Chrissie Hynde from The Pretenders, [and] Debbie Harry from Blondie. I could tell that they were rockin’ rock stars, bad asses. They had something that was probably not my lane, but I was very compelled by them with their attitude, and their absolutely extraordinary rocking prowess. Sometimes an influence can be you looking at something and going, Yeah, well, that's not quite me. But you can still recognize what they are.
Chrissy Hynde is an example. Nobody on this earth sounds like her, nobody looks like Chrissie, nobody rocks like Chrissie, nobody's got a live set like Chrissie. “Brass In Pocket” is
classic, and also because she's singing like she's not scared. She's singing like this rocking rock star [while] fully embracing her Goddess self. When I'm 14 and I'm seeing her on Top of The Pops, killing it with this rockin guitar. Finding [her] was so liberating.
When I was [making] my very first album in a big grown-up person studio, John Henry's in London, Chrissie was [also recording] there. She came over, and I couldn't speak and I couldn't say anything. She looked at me, and I had on these really nice boots, and she went, “Nice boots!” and walked past me. I couldn't believe it. She's uncompromising, but she's not scared to be like, “I'm sensual.” She’s sexy, but she's not like, Only Fans, like soft porn, hookers, conventional, what we might wrongly believe that's what guys [think is] sexy. She's raw, and she's a great musician.
Will you share a power song from your new record?
I can tell you what that is, it’s a song called, “Minor Victories” that's with that live band, and that's the most rocking thing I've ever done. That's a great example of illustrating those three great players. But what's interesting is that that's where I gave them the license to rock. On the other songs they're bringing it to a much more traditional concept of a singer-songwriter song with beautiful acoustic playing, but on that it's like that is my rockin rock song.
I’ll add it to our master playlist. Do you have any daily wellness habits or practices that are meaningful to you? You mentioned walking, are there any others?
I'm super healthy. When I got to 60, I did give up my afternoon cake, just because in my annual checkup my numbers started to go up. I was like, No, don't tell me the bloody cake’s having an effect now! So instead, now in the afternoon I have a cup of tea with a handful of nuts and raisins, just dreaming [about] scones and cake. I don't drink alcohol. I'm not I'm not in the [AA] program, I just like feeling good. I do a kundalini yoga class once a week, and I do Chi Gong. I like the way that it makes you realize that you're nothing but a speck of dust really, and just [stop] worrying about everything, because you are no more important than the leaf over there.
I have lots of things like that. I've never skipped a meal in my life. I've had breakfast, lunch and dinner and afternoon tea every single day of my life since the beginning of time. I was born into the Middle Way, like I'm not going to be on a diet for a year and then go back. I'm just very measured in that way, and I'm also consistent. I drink tons of water and I do the vitamins, the supplements. Tonight I'm going to join a Buddhist chanting group. I'd like to do that, because I think that apparently the goal is to chant for world peace.
Love it! Will you share an aspect of your character that you've grown to love, and one that you still struggle with?
Honestly, I don't know. I think maybe I have radical acceptance of what is. I just accept myself not working on anything. It's just as good as it's gonna get it.
That's a beautiful answer. I think most everybody wants to attain that place. It sounds very Middle Way, for that matter. Will you share an event from your life that created a distinct “before and after," and what kind of wisdom in hindsight you gained from the “after”?
I was listening to NPR and an amazing singer came on. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, the song was “Brown Skin,” and they didn't say who it was afterwards. I was like, How the hell am I gonna find out? I was gonna Google it. But by coincidence, that night, [someone] from NPR radio happened to be at an event I was at that night, and [she told me] that song was by India Arie. When I got the record, I thought it was brilliant. I was just obsessed with that record, who was this amazing, powerful singer songwriter.
Then ended up coincidentally meeting India, and also coincidentally, her bass [player] and drummer knew me. She didn't know who I was. Long story short, all of which was very magical, and I couldn't really believe that any of this was happening, she ended up getting an advanced copy of my “Concrete Love” album.
We then had a sort of a friendship right at the time when she was becoming hugely successful. She got nominated for the seven Grammys, and at that time she came around to my house, and obviously, I made her afternoon tea. She mentioned how much she loved [my] record, and then she said, “Sing ‘Concrete Love.’” So I started singing [the song], and she had worked out this two-part harmony from start to finish, and she said, “That song is my jam!”
So she agreed to go into the studio to sing. She had memorized every single word. Now that's a very complicated song. India did that song in the House of Blues on a DVD that I did. But she sang that song in my room, and then somehow she sang on it. So that was life-changing for me, because in any artistic endeavor, there's much more mundane than there is magic. But that's an example for me of something that is seemingly impossible that could happen.
Another example is that I'm a big Michael McDonald fan. On my first album, I [hadn’t yet] heard of Michael McDonald, but the guys that I was working with on the first record, I had a song called, “Behind Closed Doors,” and one of them said to me, “That's a bit similar to his songs.” So they were playing me Michael McDonald, and it turned out I do have quite an uncanny impersonation of him.
Fast-forward many years later, I did an album of original jazz songs, which is called, “China Blue,” and I thought, Well, if I do a cover, maybe I'll do a jazzy version of Michael McDonald's, “I Keep Forgetting.” So in the studio, I kept making all the guys laugh, doing impersonations of Michael pretending to sing along with me. Fast forward to a friend of mine, Simon Climie, a successful songwriter, [who wrote] “I Knew You Were Waiting” with Aretha Franklin and George Michael, he [also] works with Eric Clapton [told me] he was working with Michael McDonald.
I told him I did a version of “I Keep Forgetting,” and He said, “Send it to me!”
So I sent it to him, and he played it to Michael McDonald in the studio, and Michael says, “Oh, my God, I love that!” Then he says, “I'll sing on it.” He doesn't say, “Who is this person? How many records has she sold? Let me call my manager. Let me Google her.” He got up into the studio, and sang on my version of his song. Now that's magic.
So when I'm caught in the mundane, when I'm pushing that very same ice block up the same hill, I will remind myself that in amongst the mud for the lotus, I have had a couple of experiences of really quite astonishing examples of magic. I don't know if you allow it, I don't know if you manifest it. I don't know if it's just part of a karmic path that I don't know the answer to. But I would say both of those, to your question [of] “before or after,” when I'm knee-deep in the drudgery and the trudging along of releasing a record and setting it up, I will remind myself, Well, that happened before. So maybe that could happen again.
Wow, what an excellent reminder! Lastly, will you share a book, movie, podcast or TV show, or some kind of pop culture that you're currently enjoying?
I love a bit of pop culture, me. The last thing I watched on Netflix and absolutely loved were both British shows. “Baby Reindeer,” unbelievable. I was just sobbing at the end of that. The excellence, the effort, the originality was brilliant. Absolutely loved another British TV show called, “The Outlaws,” a comedy [by] Stephen Merchant. I kid you not, I'm reading the Michael McDonald [memoir], and the other crazy thing is it's a collaboration with Paul Reiser, the comedian, and ironically it was Paul that introduced me to Michael, so I’ve got to thank him for doing that. I only listen to one podcast, and that is the Glennon Doyle one. I make a big giant vegetable stew once a week. Rather annoyingly, my daughter doesn't like stew, but that's the only thing I like cooking, and I listen to it [then]. I loved [Glennon’s] book, “Untamed,” and when I read it, I realized I have inadvertently raised an untamed tiger. My daughter is an untamed heart, and I think [also] a tiger.
You can find Julia via her website, and stream her brand-new single here.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
I love this Michael McDonald story.... and that songwriting can happen anywhere.
Julia is an international treasure! So glad that the two of you were able to connect and that you are directing the Womancake spotlight onto her work and wisdom.